Broken Man sent me a blog for today, in which he (apparently) tells you that I will be guest blogging tomorrow. Unfortunately he sent it to my work email and as I haven't been at work today, you will have to put up with me guest blogging twice! Sorry about that.
With Broken Man's "learning difficulties" (I'm still not sure why they call it that - he has no problem learning at all; in fact he's rather skilled at it, it's just the vaguaries of the education system which cause problems!) I am now used to living in a highly logical house. I always think the easiest way to describe the difficulties Broken Man has to new people is to suggest that until they know him better they treat him as a Vulcan. It seems to work, both for them and for him.
Anyway, today's topic of debate was "please" and "thank you". The fact that these are social niceties which oil the wheels of conversation is not enough for Broken Man. "Thank you" was pretty easily dealt with - his conclusion is that we are grateful for someone doing something for us, and "thank you" expresses that to them. But "why does the use of one word ("please") mean that someone has manners? Particularly since the word is clearly constructed *just* to show that someone has manners" That was an altogether trickier concept for us.
I had to agree - "please" really doesn't *mean* anything. It really is just something we have made up to show that we have manners. On the other hand, always with one eye on bringing up baby, I was getting more and more uneasy at the prospect of having to justify having a "rude" child because Broken Man was able to explain away the use of a social norm!
Eventually, after a long conversation with himself (and me, but I really didn't submit anything useful to the mix!) Broken Man came up with a way of making it work. "Please" offers an element of choice. It recognises that someone has the right to say "no", and is therefore a request, not a command. It's purpose is to differentiate between a request and a command.
I breathed a sigh of relief. We have an explanation we can offer the baby when it gets as far as talking. We have a reason for saying "please" and "thank you", because in our house, EVERYTHING must have a reason. I have some concerns about other people's "inconsistances" with this theory - quite how I am going to explain that when the teacher says "please put on your coat", she is actually issuing a command, not making a request, is something to worry about for the future.
For now, though, social disaster has been averted, and actually I quite like the idea of saying to a child something like "are you happy that X has given you/done this for you? If you are, the short way we say that is thank you" I think it's far better than the usual prompt of "what do you say?", which seems to require no understanding of the principle behind the word.
I have no doubt that we will come on to "sorry" another day - that's a whole new can of worms!
Broken Man's Wife
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7 comments:
Yes, we use that prompt for "thankyou" - "you feel thankful, it makes people happy to know it!" ;)
For "please" we'd say (after giving whatever it was), "I prefer to hear you asking with polite words, because I want to know that you are respecting me".
I don't expect "please" in an emergancy, the same as I would never say "please" TO my child if it was totally not optional to do what I asked. "Get down from there. Thankyou." Is perfectly polite from my POV, but not respectful to the point of giving the impression that climbing is fine right now.
thank you for this thought! that was a great read and it's quite embarrassing that i have never thought about it before other than the fact that i want my niece to say please and thank you. but why??? your post made me think!
franzi
Don't start me on "sorry". I teach teenagers!
LOL @ Doorman!
I am quite militant with my kids regarding please, thank you, excuse me (if they say this when i am in conversation i will stop and listen to them, if they do not, they get ignored. The only exception is the emergency!!)
I am also therfore quite militant that people (incl. strangers) respect my children with good manners. Thank you (for holding a door open, or giving up a seat) costs nothing. I don't tolerate rude!
As for sorry...well now two of them are teens and i get the glum " sorry" I tell them not to say it if they do not mean it. If they are sorry they got caught (for wahtever reason) then they are not trully sorry. Howwever if they are sorry they upset / hurt me then i will accept! I also give them time to go away and think about the form of the apology, for which reason it is being given. When they were younger the apology had to tell me WHY they were sorry. Sorry isnt always enough but "sorry i broke the plate because i was being silly" means more. They thought about it!
Great post long suffering one!
Very well put ! I don't think I could have done any better. It is a trial to teach kids the norm to act and very hard to come up with explanations when they get into social situations where kids may be taught differently then they...Sounds like you will do a fine job though;)
I asked Jenna (4) this morning what she thinks about saying thankyou/sorry/please. This is what she told me:
"I say thankyou because people like to make me happy, and they don't know I'm happy if I don't tell them. [We say please because] it's really rude to demand and it makes people feel sad and cross. Grown-ups do everything slow and it's polite to wait quietly. And sorry helps people feel better when I made them sad. Nice words make people feel loved."
Have to add that we probably prompt less than once a week and only after the fact (I know you know what to do, but I wonder if you noticed that some words would have helped just now...). Mostly they work it out based on what they hear, and how we talk to them.
Thanks for the comments evertone, and particularly Arwen for going to the trouble of asking a real live small person their opinion!
I particularly liked the "grown-ups do everything slow" comment! I think Broken Man would agree! :)
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